Body Language, Business & What You Might Be Missing

Teresa Schlup (00:02)
Welcome to the solo grind your weekly coffee break with me Teresa Schlup the original caffeine creative Where we talk about all the things around building your business solo from mindset breakthrough strategy and today body language So grab a cup of coffee and let's talk about what it takes to build your business solo

Teresa Schlup (00:28)
Have you ever stumbled upon a piece of advice online and thought, this is a brilliant idea, I am going to do this, only to find out that the advice really wasn't well thought out before it was given. Let me explain. So I have been into smoothies recently, wanting a good healthy smoothie to start my day, to get my nutrients in and to fill up my belly in a quick and easy simple way.

but I don't like taking the time to prep a smoothie every single morning. I am a meal prepper. I prepare my breakfast and my lunches early in the weekend or late on Sundays so that all week long I have everything I need to make sure that I eat because I know me. If I don't have things pre-prepped, I will forget to eat or choose to eat garbage. So I like to prep. Well, in looking for some smoothie ideas,

This past week, I came across a website where the lady says that she does all of her smoothies on Sunday and she freezes them so that she can take them out when she wakes up and they're ready to go when she walks out the door an hour later. And I thought, brilliant, let's do that. Let's prep our smoothies so that we can have them ready to go as soon as we are. Now, I don't walk out the door, I work from home.

And I honestly like to have a slow start to my day. So I usually spend a little time in the mornings, about an hour and a half ⁓ journaling, meditating, hanging out with my pups and my cats, whatever, just doing my thing, sipping coffee. So I had more than an hour for my smoothie to be ready for me to drink. And when I went to grab that smoothie the first day, it was pretty much still frozen solid.

Okay, it had been sitting on the counter, thawing out, waiting for me, and I could not drink it. So I let it sit a little bit longer and a little bit longer. And then I ran it under some warm water and started stirring it vigorously with my straw as soon as I had any wiggle room in the smoothie. Long story short, lunchtime rolled around.

and I finally got to drink my breakfast smoothie. So great advice, not well thought out, and things were just missing. That is what happens in the world of business all the time. Somebody presents an idea as if they are the expert and they know everything about it, and they say, is brilliant, you should do this, adopt this practice immediately. And as solo business owners who don't have a sounding board often,

We think they know what they're doing. They have a successful business. Let me dive in. Well, unfortunately, there's a lot of not well thought out advice out there. It may be well intentioned, but it's not been truly put into practice. And so you've got to take each piece of advice with a grain of salt. Thankfully today's guest has tried and true business advice I'm so excited to have her

back on the show. My good friend, Nancy Quinn, formerly known as Nancy Ganzekaufer is an incredible business coach and her tips, tricks and advice is tried and true. And I am speaking from advice because yes, she has been my own business coach.

Teresa Schlup (04:08)
Today's episode is all about mastering the kind of communication that builds trust, strengthens client relationships, and ultimately leads to smoother, more successful projects. If you are a service-based entrepreneur, small business owner, especially in a creative field like interior design, you know that your words, tone, and body language can either make or break a client's confidence in you.

And today's guest is an expert in all of this. So Nancy Quinn, an interior design business coach who helps designers grow thriving, profitable businesses without burning out. Nancy brings a wealth of insight when it comes to client dynamics, setting expectations and stepping fully into your role as the expert in the room. Whether you struggle with sales conversations,

tough feedback moments, or just want to lead your projects with more confidence, this episode is for you.

Teresa Schlup (05:12)
Hello, Nancy, welcome back to the solo grind. I am so excited to have you here for today's topic.

Nancy (05:17)
Teresa, I love this topic. You know I love this topic. Anything to do with communication, I love.

Teresa Schlup (05:22)
I and I actually specifically requested you for this topic when I was working with Pamela, because we're gonna have Leslie on the show here in a couple of weeks as well. And I love having both of you guys, because you both have such good wisdom to share. But when it comes to body language, reading the room, spotting when a client's not on board, these kinds of things, like you are better than anybody I've ever spoken to, because you really get that.

Nancy (05:27)
Thank you.

Teresa Schlup (05:47)
And it's such a key important thing for solo small business owners to understand as well.

Nancy (05:52)
Thank you. Yeah, it's funny because when I'm doing my group coaching program, the Profit Insider Academy, I can read the people over Zoom and I'll be like, so and so, do you need more clarification on that? And they like look at me shocked. They're like, well, yeah, actually I do. Cause they didn't raise their hand or ask to talk, but I can tell sometimes by a micro expression.

Teresa Schlup (06:05)
this.

Nancy (06:13)
or a body movement that something didn't hit them right. So they're trying to figure it out in their head. And that's when I want to get clarity into their brain, right, if they need it from me. And that is a skill that takes it's a whole nother skill that I went to body language training for. And I'm a body language trainer now. And it helps me I don't use it as much as other body language trainers, but I use it in my practice to teach people the subtle things they can look for to help close a sale, or they can

Teresa Schlup (06:23)
Yes!

Nancy (06:43)
catch something the client does, could really make a difference in the trust the client has for them. The better you are at reading people in a sales situation or that business relationship, the better communicator you are going to be. Right? I will say though, it doesn't change the other person and whether they are a listener and whether they actually will absorb what you're saying, but at least it gives you that extra edge that

Teresa Schlup (06:58)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (07:08)
you'll know that I need to give a little more information or I need to back off a little bit or I need to give this person more space or less space, right? You start to watch them and get a feeling of their emotional state by being a great observer, not just a talker.

Teresa Schlup (07:16)
Okay? Okay?

Yes, and that honestly, I've employed a lot of this that I've learned from you in my own business. So, and one of the key areas is obviously the sales call it comes into hand. But for me, when it comes to the design reveal, when I'm gonna show a client and their first draft of their new websites, it always is in video chat, always. Like I don't just say, here's the link, what do you think? I want to see their facial reaction. And yeah, some of it is because it feels good when I hit it, you know, and I know that I've nailed it it's perfect.

Nancy (07:54)
Yeah.

Teresa Schlup (07:55)
But I also want to know when it doesn't feel good and their face, they'll always tell me, this is great. But I will see some subtle thing that I'm like, but something's not feeling right to you. And I want to know what that is because your website should be something you love. And I feel like you don't love it. And so then I have to like pull it out of them. And then, you know, we get to a ⁓ resolution that fits all of us way sooner in the process than waiting till we're about to launch and then backtrack and be like, you know.

Nancy (08:01)
Yes.

Yes.

Teresa Schlup (08:26)
some of this.

Nancy (08:27)
Correct because sometimes we're scared to acknowledge the fact that you saw a micro expression or a body language cue that made you feel like they didn't love it a lot of designers or business owners service-based business owners since it's such a personal reflection to them because it's such a it's a creative process for most people have service-based businesses, right? They take it very personally So if they see that micro expression of discontent or they see a person may push papers away and kind of back

Teresa Schlup (08:30)
Yum.

Mm-hmm.

Nancy (08:57)
up a little bit from the camera, ⁓ turn away a lot, not making eye contact with the screen or crossing their arms, things like that. Crossing your arms is a pretty obvious one that a lot of people know, but there's a lot of more subtle body language cues that people just don't look for because they've never thought to do it before.

Teresa Schlup (09:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Nancy (09:18)
Right?

So getting that eye for their, it's an emotional eye tied to their body language, converting what you're seeing in their body language to their emotional state. And then figuring out, there something I can do better or do I end it here? Cause they're so happy. Okay. Overselling, which is, you know,

Teresa Schlup (09:36)
Overselling is

a big one too.

Nancy (09:38)
It's over and we all do it at times when we're like, I really want to work with this person or I really need the money, whichever, whatever's going on in your head. And we oversell and we're not actually observing our client. We're just waiting to talk, waiting to get this information. I have to make sure I get this information to them. And my process is this, and this is what you can expect in the past client did this. And I was in a magazine once like things like that are unnecessary to say. And as you're saying them, if you're watching your client or potential

Teresa Schlup (10:04)
Yeah.

Nancy (10:08)
client you can see how they maybe start backing up a little bit sitting back in their chair they're not as interested they start looking around they're looking down at their phone or they just seem not engaged.

Teresa Schlup (10:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Nancy (10:21)
then you know, okay, I feel like you're not engaged right now completely or there's something that's bothering you. Can we dig into that and find out, am I accurate? Is something bothering you? Like there's so many ways to ask somebody what they're feeling and thinking that isn't like, do you like it? Because like you said, you love it as much as I do, you know. So when you're in person with somebody, obviously body language is a little simpler.

Teresa Schlup (10:39)
Tell me you love it. You love it? You love it? No, just kidding.

Yes.

Nancy (10:50)
But

certainly there are a tremendous amount of ways when you're watching somebody on screen that you can also determine do they seem content, happy, excited, or do they seem bored, I gotta get out of here, I can't believe this is what they're telling me, or I can't believe this price. You gotta really be observant, I'd say is the simplest way to put it.

Teresa Schlup (11:10)
So what are some of the key things that you encourage your ⁓ clients in your coaching program to look for, to be observant of? What are some of those things?

Nancy (11:18)
Okay, so the first

thing I actually teach them is to make sure they understand their own body language first.

Teresa Schlup (11:24)
Mmm.

Nancy (11:25)
Okay, so you're you're encoding

your body language on somebody else all the time every moment of the day when you're around other people Are you saying i'm interested in what you're saying? I'm not interested in what you're saying. I love what you're saying. I hate what you're saying What are you doing with your own body language and start observing? How you are? Being perceived by others by watching them, right? So there's so many different like body language cues that I don't even know where to start but I I think i'd start with

your first impression.

Your first impression is actually permanent. That will be the thing that people always think of you subconsciously. So if you're getting out of the car and the first time they're seeing you or getting on camera disheveled, in a rush, late, going into your trunk and pulling out all kinds of crap before you get to the front door, they're watching you from the window possibly. She's here, he's here, the designer's here, right? If we're talking to interior designers or any service-based business, the first time they meet you,

Teresa Schlup (12:19)
us.

Mm-hmm.

Nancy (12:27)
see you, it's going to make an impact as to what they think of you.

Teresa Schlup (12:32)
That is so very true. I had a video chat years ago with somebody who was a potential collaborator and I had met her over coffee and we had a lovely chat and that was the first impression. But it was a quick little chat and my first real impression is this is a potential collaborator was a video chat and she hopped on and her hair was sticking up in different directions and behind her, her office looked like it was this huge shelf.

Nancy (12:52)
You

Teresa Schlup (13:00)
all these books and papers and stuff and I thought it was gonna like fall on top of her and then a cat pops into the video and was playing with the stuff on the shelf and I thought it's really gonna fall on top of her. I didn't pay attention to a word she was saying because I'm like this this is like she's gonna die in her clutter. ⁓

Nancy (13:20)
But like, you'll always remember that about her, right? And if she came to work with you, yes. Yes.

Teresa Schlup (13:23)
And it was very hard to take her seriously after that. It really

was, even though she was a completely lovely person.

Nancy (13:31)
It's not about their personality. It really isn't. And it's not about your personality, whoever's listening. When I talk about first impressions, they haven't even met your personality yet. They've just seen you from a distance. So people think body language is just about where we put our arms, our legs, our feet, our eyes and things, but body language includes your first impression and what people think of you when they first see you. Are you well put together? Are you organized? Do you seem confident and calm?

Teresa Schlup (13:33)
Go!

Mm-hmm.

Nancy (14:00)
and ready for this appointment with them as opposed to I'm rushing, I'm disheveled, I'm not ready for this appointment. And if they spot that or even feel it from you, that could kill that impression of you immediately. And it really doesn't matter what you say after that, right? So people focus so much on what I want to say during an appointment, what I want to say. They don't think about what I want to show in my body language, okay? So this is an important thing where...

Teresa Schlup (14:26)
Yes, yes, and

so important.

Nancy (14:30)
If you're sitting, it's just some little minor tips that probably need a lot more detail to them, but I'll give you a few little ones. Okay. The way we look at somebody actually makes a difference. There's three different types of gazing it's called, but it's basically eye contact, right? So there's the social gaze that we do with our friends. And that's sort of like, you know, when we look in someone's eyes, we're not staring nonstop into their eyes, right? You're looking at their eyes and your eyes wander around in a social gaze. Your eyes normally wander down towards somebody's mouth. You're looking at their mouth.

Teresa Schlup (14:45)
Okay.

Thank

You

Nancy (15:00)
while they're talking. So you go from eyes to mouth, kind of like a triangle. Your eyes are straight line down to a triangle to your mouth. That's a social gaze. That's what we use with our friends. But if you want to be considered.

a leader in your process and get the confidence from your clients right from the beginning. I want you to invert the triangle where the line is still at your eyes but the point goes up to your forehead and you never let your eyes go below somebody's eye level when you want to do a power gaze it's called but I consider it sort of a leadership gaze. I'm the expert here you hired me to be the expert I'm the leader I'm listening to you I hear

Teresa Schlup (15:35)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (15:41)
you but it's I'm gonna I got you this is my process and I'm really good at it so that leadership or power gaze as it's officially called is huge to change the nature of the relationship between you and the other person when you're in person for sure when you're in video it's a little harder but one things that I do is look at the camera

I look at the camera 90 % of the time and once in a while I glance down at the person I'm talking to because I'm reading peripherally their body language. Was there a head shake that made me think, let me look at them quickly and see if they're understanding what I'm saying. Do they need more information? But in person, you can definitely make sure as you're looking at someone.

matching their level of eye contact is the general rule because you don't want to make someone uncomfortable by staring at them too much and uncomfortable by not looking at them at all. So there's a balance and you usually take the lead from the other person but when you're looking at them to be considered the leader subconsciously in your own process, I want you to start looking at how you look at other people and stick to that power gaze or leadership gaze instead of a social gaze.

Teresa Schlup (16:54)
That's really fascinating. And actually this is a new one for me that I'm learning from you and I love it. And I will say, like you said, you always look at the camera. I have a hard time focusing on the camera because I want to look at them just like right now we're talking, I'm looking at you. So what I will do is position the person right directly beneath my camera on screen so that I know that I'm looking at them and the camera at the same time. And it creates that, you know, that connection that I'm looking at them.

Nancy (17:13)
Yes. Yes.

Teresa Schlup (17:22)
and they can feel it because my eyes are gazed at the camera typically. Not right now, I have no eyes on the side, but you know.

Nancy (17:26)
Yes, like

you're close to my camera, but we're on camera now, even though everyone's just listening to us, but I can look at the camera, but when I look down at you, it's definitely different. And I've been told many times, how come it looks like you're looking at me, but I'm looking down at you? And I'm like, because I'm looking at the camera. I'm not looking at your, but I have trained myself to.

quickly scan and do that peripheral vision. Like I'm not looking at you right now, but I could see you're nodding and like peripheral vision is an amazing thing. If you have 10, 15 people in a group, it gets a little harder, but for the most part, you want to watch for anything coming from you to them that could turn them off. And you want to make sure you're always.

encoding on them your confidence. And when you start learning some of these body language skills, it helps with your sales. And that's why I became a body language trainer, because I teach sales and how to close and how to have a conversation that doesn't feel salesy and all that fun stuff. Part of the way you do that is by using your tools and your body language to help close the deal. Talk less and think about your body language more.

Teresa Schlup (18:16)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Nancy (18:40)
and it will

sometimes calm the situation down and make it go much smoother. So any questions on that? Cause I could just keep talking.

Teresa Schlup (18:50)
Well, I wanna ask you about one thing that I started doing is, cause I am a very enthusiastic person and when I'm excited to meet somebody, I can be a little bit much and I know that, I'm a little over the top. So that's just me, but one of the things that I've started doing practicing, I don't even remember where I heard it from, is when you meet somebody and you're excited to meet them, instead of like diving in like, oh my God, I'm so excited to meet you, is make eye contact and then do a slow smile.

It's and that's what it is like. So you see them and then you do the slow smile where it starts with your, you know, your, your mouth and it goes up to your eyes. And like that has really made people more comfortable around me. Initially.

Nancy (19:33)
Yeah, it's

a warmth cue that you're talking about, right? A smile. When people, when they want to trust us, they're gonna look at your eyes and your hands and then the rest of your face, right? So hands showing are so key when you meet somebody for the first time, but.

Teresa Schlup (19:37)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Nancy (19:52)
And using hand gestures when you're talking, but I want to add one thing to your greeting with people because there's something called haptics. It's basically when you touch somebody, it's a fancy name for touching someone. When you touch someone, literally releases oxytocin and gives them a warmer feeling. Again, a lot of body language is subconscious. It makes them trust you more. It is actually proven in studies that if you go to a restaurant and you're ordering food, if the waiter

Teresa Schlup (19:55)
you

Okay, good.

Nancy (20:22)
waitress has the opportunity to you know lean over touch in the shoulder you know how is your meal ma'am it is proven that you will give them a bigger tip because you've touched them and the touch makes them you're them touching you makes you warmer to that waiter or waitress so think about that touching help shaking hands during covid it was hard to get that

Teresa Schlup (20:32)
interesting.

And.

Yeah.

Nancy (20:47)
oxytocin from a new greeting so people started fist bumping. Waving is good because you still see the hand and it's a trust indicator but trust indicator wave smile eye contact and then a handshake is the way to kind of complete a really great greeting that gives everybody that first impression of you that you are warm you're professional and you're ready to listen.

Teresa Schlup (20:51)
Mm-hmm.

All

Okay, I love that. And I do like I will see the person I do my slow smile. And then it's either a handshake or a gentle touch like on the upper arm. You know, like, so great to meet you, you know, kind of thing. But what about online because so many solo small business owners are doing what we're doing right now. And it's mostly online, like, I rarely get to meet a client in person, we've never met in person and we've known each other for years.

Nancy (21:19)
That's perfect.

That's it.

I know this is so funny. I'm

waving. So I don't know if you will notice, but in my videos, for the most part, I think I do it naturally now. So I don't have to think about it. But in the beginning, I used to purposely, you know, good morning, everyone. It's Nancy Quinn, previously Ganselkofer, my Profit Insider Academy business coach, and body language trainer to interior designers. go, how is everyone today? I just waved, right? I do one hand, I do both hands on video, I try to keep my hands above the camera, not in my lap. Even if I'm just ⁓ kind of making a teepee

Teresa Schlup (21:38)
What the?

Yeah.

Nancy (22:04)
with my hands in front of the camera right at my high chest level where

people can see my hands in the camera. When I'm talking, and this is a tip for everyone, ⁓ using your hand gestures will reduce the cognitive load on your potential client or your clients. So when you say, have three options for you, you should hold up three fingers. The first option, hold up one finger, the second option and the third option, which do you prefer? The fact that you're holding up your fingers, one, two, three, they're understanding it better. They're not having to concentrate so hard on what you're saying and then go, wait a minute,

Was it three? It automatically adds information to the brain that allows someone to process something easier than just verbal, which is why your body language is so important also. So you want to say, I've got a, I've got.

Teresa Schlup (22:41)
Yeah.

Nancy (22:54)
Two options for you, this one and that one. And I'm holding up one hand to the left and one hand to the right, right? You're using your good, better, best. Your hand is going from low, good, better, and best. You're going from low to high. If I did it opposite, it would make your brain misfire, right? If I said good, better, best, and I did it from opposite, from high to low, your brain would be like, wait a minute, what is she talking about? But when I do it right, you just comprehend.

And you don't have to ask me to repeat. You'll remember more. And again, using your hand gestures will make someone trust you more. Keeping them consistent and making them match what you're saying helps people absorb what you're saying and they trust you more.

Teresa Schlup (23:31)
Absolutely.

Nancy (23:39)
So other things like observing your clients when you're in person talking to them. There's something called fronting where their feet and your feet are facing each other. Your hands, your shoulder, your head, your shoulders, your feet are all facing each other and you're just talking. When someone starts to have less interest, they may back up a step. They may turn their foot to the right towards the bathroom, towards the door, starting to back up feeling like

they're done with this conversation, right? So if you are talking money, problems, you're going to see a lot of these cues coming from people all the time, right? Because they're upset. They don't understand something. I'm asking everyone to observe the body language and don't let that be the conversation killer. Like, my God, they're upset. I got to get out of here. Which is what most people feel, right? ⁓ God, the client's getting upset. How do I get out of this? I sell everyone don't run.

Teresa Schlup (24:15)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (24:35)
actually dig into it.

Teresa Schlup (24:37)
Yes, yes, absolutely.

Nancy (24:39)
It extends the conversation.

Don't let it kill the conversation. Same as when I teach people when someone says, I gotta think about it. Okay.

What are you thinking about? Let me make sure I've answered all your questions. Or if my husband needs to, I need to run this by my husband or my wife. Okay, no problem. What do you need to run by them? Right? And is there anything they normally need to know in order to make this positive decision, right? Don't let objections or reading someone's body language stop the conversation. Use it to dig in more. Like, so if you see someone backs up a little bit and they're looking jittery, they're looking uncomfortable, they're not looking you in the eye,

Teresa Schlup (24:51)
Hmm?

Nancy (25:17)
anymore. You can literally say what I can tell that part of this seems unclear to you or you seem nervous about it. Can I ask what you're thinking? Let it go right? Is there anything that doesn't sit quite right with you because I see I feel like I'm feeling a little distance from you right now right? Ask them or any hesitations we haven't addressed? Is there anything I haven't addressed that's on your mind?

Teresa Schlup (25:18)
Yes.

Very good.

Nancy (25:44)
Having these few

little sentences in your back pocket when you're feeling nervous about what you're seeing out of a person is going to be light years better than just being like, okay, I gotta go.

Teresa Schlup (25:55)
Right, right. Well, and I personally, when somebody kind of gives me a no, I'm like, okay, I love that. Because now I'm getting why is it a no, not because I want to be all rude, like, why don't you like me? But, you know, tell me what what's holding you back, because there may be another solution. And there's different ways to say it that I'm saying it at the moment. But there's

Nancy (26:10)
Yes.

No, but I love

that there may be another solution to what's bothering you. if you verbalize it, I can address it. If you don't and just sit with it, I can't help you. And for some reason, business owners have trouble saying that to somebody because well, they're paying me. So I should just know because they pay you does not mean you know how to read their minds, but

Teresa Schlup (26:23)
Right. Exactly.

Nancy (26:35)
If you're listening to their words and reading their body language and observing, you may get more information that brings you to a different conclusion than automatically concluding. They don't like me. I'm too expensive. I hear all the excuses. And I'm like, that is all just the story your brain is telling you itself.

Teresa Schlup (26:54)
it's 100 % the store. I will get inquiries on all kinds of things that I don't do. Then so when I ask people, okay, so what isn't sitting right? Why is this a no? What does it feel good? They may tell me and I may, you know what? I may not be the person for you today. I wanna be in your back pocket when you're ready for me, but let me introduce you to somebody else. So now I've made a connection, I've made a referral, I've supported another small business and they remember me as a useful resource that they do come back to.

Nancy (27:13)
Yes.

Teresa Schlup (27:23)
in the future. So I love being able to recognize those kind of things and be like, let's talk about what what doesn't feel good is usually what I say, what doesn't feel good.

Nancy (27:31)
Yes.

Right. And I, it comes, it can come from someone telling you straight out, I don't think this is the right fit, or it can come from you reading them. You reading them, right? If you decide to switch your mode to, I have a ton of information to relay to, I'm going to really observe this person and just really be a good listener.

Teresa Schlup (27:52)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (27:54)
What I teach and you know this is less clients, more money, exemplary service. How do you get that exemplary service piece? By understanding human nature, communication, body language, and being able to really, I'm going to say, adjust yourself. And for those who are mothers and fathers, I think you're going to understand this. have three different kids, three different personalities. They're not changing for you. So you are managing each of your

Teresa Schlup (28:20)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (28:24)
parenting each of your children differently because they have different personalities and that's your job as a parent, right? It's the same when you're a business owner in a service-based business. You have different clients with different personalities and you can't have just...

Teresa Schlup (28:31)
Absolutely.

Nancy (28:39)
one gear all the time. Sometimes you have to slow down, sometimes you have to speed up, sometimes you have to be a little bit more communicative. For some clients, it's less and learning to read their emotional state, their body language, their personality will go light years from having a more, let's say, organized and smooth process than not learning how to read people as a service based entrepreneur. Right?

Teresa Schlup (28:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay,

this is is so good. And I want to look at your notes here because you sent me some notes ahead of time. And I do want to touch some of these. So reading the room like a pro. What are some things? What are some tips that you can give to the listeners today about reading the room like a pro specifically?

Nancy (29:24)
Okay, so I want you always to have open body language yourself, right? Not crossed arms, a ⁓ relaxed stance. When you're looking around at people and trying to figure out where I can be, let's talk a specific, like a networking event, okay? A networking event specifically, I want you to make decisions in advance. When I walk in the door, what am I doing first? And then who am I going to look for when I'm there in order to... ⁓

create the conversations that I need to, the reason why I'm coming to a networking event, right? So figure out your reasons for going to a networking event and it should not be to collect a hundred business cards. It should be to have, right, you've done that, I've done that. It should be to get two meaningful conversations, right?

Teresa Schlup (30:01)
Thank you for saying that.

Yes,

I love that.

Nancy (30:10)
So when you look around the room, you look for people who are by themselves, people who are looking around also to kind of scan. If someone's in a conversation, you can walk up and stand there and usually somebody will introduce you in. But when you're reading a room, I want you to notice if someone is talking to you, are they standing talking to you 100 % full frontal basing, right? Fronting it's called, we talked about that before. Are they making eye contact on a regular basis or are they looking over your shoulder?

Teresa Schlup (30:32)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (30:40)
and uninterested. Right? Where are their hands? What are they doing with their hands? Are they in their pockets? That's a sign too that you know what this person is nervous, ⁓ uncomfortable. I want you to start noticing how they're standing, where they're looking, and whether they're jittery or not. Now there's plenty of ways you have to be careful when you're reading body language because let's say you are online at a pharmacy and somebody's like this, like they're just waiting online.

and you want to start a conversation with people. It could be that they have a cold and they just don't want to talk to anybody right now. It could be a neighbor even that you know, but they're just not interested in having a conversation right now. It's nothing against you. So understanding what you're looking at, having open body language when you're talking to someone, you want to gently mirror their words and their actions. And I mean gently, not overtly.

Okay, okay, so if somebody is using the word budget

I don't know if I have the budget for this. This is way too much money. Right? You can say, I understand your budget is tight. I like to call it an investment level because investment level is expensive. Budget makes you want to sit on your wallet. So I understand you may not have an investment level in mind at this point, but let's go over, right? So using their words before you switch to your industry words or the words you like explain it. That's number one. When you're observing and you're hearing, do you need to do any of those switches gently?

Teresa Schlup (32:08)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (32:13)
to get you all on the same page with terminology, right? Okay. ⁓ Slowing your speech down if you feel a client is not keeping up. I will also tell you that when people get nervous, their voices go up.

Teresa Schlup (32:17)
Okay, that's really powerful, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nancy (32:31)
in

tone and part of your body language is the tone of your voice. And unfortunately, some people have been born with very high pitched voices, which may read difficult to some people, right? But I always say, try to be your, always be yourself. But if you take a deep breath and exhale, you will get your voice to its lowest register. Lower registers like men.

Teresa Schlup (32:53)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (32:57)
tend to be looked at as more authoritative, more leaders, okay? It's a lot to do with the tone of voice. So if there's young designers, older designers, or any business owner who has a very high pitched voice, sometimes you actually can do some work to lower it. Because when I start getting nervous, I start talking like this. And that means I'm really excited, right? That reads, I'm rushing, I'm nervous, trying to get all my information out before the client changes their mind, right? You don't want to be right like that. You want to be like slow.

Teresa Schlup (33:05)
Okay.

Me. Me too.

Nancy (33:27)
Slower speech so the client doesn't feel like you're nervous. Lower register if you can. Facing them, fronting them with them. A little haptics, a little touch here and there if you're walking by them. Even if you're walking by them and you're kind of scooting and you you touch somebody on the back, that's a touch. That qualifies, okay? ⁓ I want everyone to embrace the fact that they're the expert.

Teresa Schlup (33:33)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Nancy (33:55)
I want them to

walk in the room. I'm here. I don't mean pompous, snotty. I just mean I'm here and I've got you. And you want to make sure someone feels that from you because you are actually in tune with their emotions and what they're feeling just by observing them. So slow down, observe, get a handshake in, eye contact, power gaze, the leadership gaze that we talked about. ⁓

Couple of other tips, if you're in person with somebody and you are presenting something to them, don't sit across from them.

Across from them is the adversarial position. If you ever worked in the corporate world, if the boss was having a meeting and you were pissed off and you were ready to go at them at that meeting, you're going to sit across from them usually or her, right? But if you're sitting to the right or left, those are your friends. Those are your cohorts. And you want to be a cohort with your potential client. You want to sit next to them and present their proposal, but also be watching. Are they pushing paper away? Kind of like when you play poker and you got shitty cards. People who are really good poker players

Teresa Schlup (34:36)
Thanks for watching!

Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Nancy (35:03)
can watch other people's body language and make a determination if they think someone has good cards or not. It's the same. If you're presenting a proposal in person, sit next to the person, do all the pretty stuff first, right? Then you're going over some numbers possibly, watch them. If they're taking that piece of paper and they're pushing it forward, okay, great, we'll call you next week.

Is there something further you'd like to discuss? there anything in here that is bothering you or I can clarify for you, right? Because if they push it away, they may not be ready to tell you, but you can tell there's something on their mind. Okay. If they sort of leave it.

Teresa Schlup (35:40)
Absolutely.

Nancy (35:42)
on the table and they put their hands over kind of like secure like poker cards that means okay I'm gonna stay I'm gonna keep listening right sometimes if they move it forward like okay great let me talk to my husband about this that means they kind of like what they they see right they're pulling it closer to them so there's these really subtle

tips when you're in person or on video that can really help change the way you're perceived. And that's my goal is to make sure everyone's perceived as the professional business person they want to be. Right? I want to add a couple other things to you, if you don't mind. Okay, your first impression is often your online presence. So what are you showing online?

Teresa Schlup (36:13)
Yes! Yes!

Please. Yeah, absolutely. I love this. This is good.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, that is such a big one. And I would extend that while I don't use my personal social media accounts to build business like I once did, I have pulled them back to be just me, it still matters and it still makes an impression. And I have passed on opportunities because of what I see of a person online. Even though I don't know them, something about it made me uncomfortable. So I'm really glad that you're bringing this one up. Very good.

Nancy (36:29)
Okay.

Yes.

I'll

tell you what makes people uncomfortable when they look and there's no picture. That's number one. No picture makes people uncomfortable. But if we're talking about body language, so if you're going to have a picture, make sure your face and your hands are showing. Those are your trust indicators. Face, hands, eyes. Everyone, I look at pictures all the time and their primary picture is of the designer facing away from the camera, looking at some rugs or, and it's a great picture. Use it on a different page, but.

Teresa Schlup (37:22)
Absolutely.

Nancy (37:23)
the page that they're first coming to to see your face and who you are. Smile at that camera, look it in the eye, make sure your hands are showing somehow. Men do a lot of crossed-arm things. I prefer that's not. That is a closed body language, meaning I'm not an open person. So I prefer hands and eyes looking at the camera. Hands on your lap, hands up. You can do many different things with your hands on your hips, but as long as they're showing.

Teresa Schlup (37:48)
Yes. As a web designer, I see a really big trend, especially with people who are a little bit more nervous at showing up is either they want just like a literally a headshot, like shoulders up, or they have something that they got done 20 years ago on a cruise ship or something. And it doesn't look anything like them. And I have to try and talk them out of that. And I usually succeed, but not always and it and it makes a difference and the impression people

Nancy (38:14)
It does.

It does. I'm training a sales team for a ⁓ large, you know, kitchen and bath place. They have sales designers, so I'm training them. And when I go and look at their social media, it's like, yeah, they are hiding big time. If sales is part of being

Teresa Schlup (38:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Nancy (38:35)
a business owner and it is even though you hate it, is you have to show up regularly and openly to get people to want to work with you. They want to know who's coming into their home. They want to know who they're getting on the phone with. They want to know who's coaching them. They want to hear your voice, see your face, see what you're like and that

Teresa Schlup (38:37)
It is.

Nancy (38:56)
really takes them halfway through the sales process once they trust you. If you have the right things on your website, it is literally 50 % towards the sale, in my opinion, maybe more Theresa, you could tell me that. Where they get on with me or you and they know us already. They feel like they know us already.

Teresa Schlup (39:09)
you

always know when somebody has been on my website versus a referral because they'll say, I really like, and they start talking about things on my website that appeal to them. And that is what had them clicking the button in Saybook now.

Nancy (39:29)
Exactly. Not only

do they like what they see on their website, they see a picture of you, they see you having fun, they see you doing different scenarios, and they go, I think I'm going to like this woman, I'm going to work with her, right? It is, unfortunately, the first step is to be likable, right?

Teresa Schlup (39:40)
Absolutely.

It is

to be likable, but we're asking people to trust us with a big part of their lives, whether it be interior design or coaching or whatever the case is, we are asking them to trust us and they are considering a big investment.

Nancy (39:58)
And you're the expert presence in the room. So you want to act like it and understand what it Feels like to be the confident person in the room, right? I want everyone to own their expertise You are a designer if you are selling your services to someone else It's as basic as you have to at least be one step ahead of the person you're selling it to It's as basic as that but

You're really light years ahead of the person you're selling it to and you need to understand that that is a value to them just like someone may be paying them to do what they do best. Transfer of energy. Money is energy. I work to make my money and then I give my money to other people for services I don't want to do. So it's that simple. So making sure that you

Teresa Schlup (40:36)
Exactly.

Yes, 100 % right there, you've scanned it.

Nancy (40:53)
can read other people's cues and that your cues to other people in your body language are accurately reflecting your professionalism and what you want as a tongue twister and what you actually want to relate to that person is going to be a ⁓ huge difference in your success rate closing right from the beginning when they first meet you. If someone's telling me, just am not closing them, I'm going to the paid in home consult and I'm just not closing them. That's usually an indicator that they need a little bit of body language training to

how they're imposing their body language on other people. If they are just getting ghosted a lot, often that's, want to know how they're reading other people's body language. If they're actually taking the time to observe, right? You've got to take time to observe and not just go in talking.

Teresa Schlup (41:37)
Yes.

And be constantly thinking about, well, what am going to say next? What am I going to say next? Be in the moment. Be very focused in the moment.

Nancy (41:47)
That's what a lot of people do. Yes,

be very focused in the moment, not waiting. I got to these five, these 15 things. I have to make sure I relay them because in the past this has been problems with clients. No. Listen to what the client has to say, answer their question, add more details only if necessary. We overwhelm clients way more than we just sit and listen. And here's a funny story.

My body language trainer, Vanessa Van Edwards, she's the scientist behind the science of people. She's amazing. Her books are great. She trained me and she did an experiment years ago where she took a three day bow of silence. Complete silence, no talking. She could not talk. And she looked at her calendar after she made this dictate and she had two networking events on the calendar.

So she was like, Oh my God, what am I going to do? I got to go into a room with tons of people and I'm not talking. She was experimenting to see how as the science of people, she does experiments all the time. One of the networking events. I don't think I remember the second one. She spoke to three people, but she didn't speak. had four, I think she had four index cards. One said, I'm sorry, I'm doing an experiment three day, silence. I'm Vanessa van Edwards. Tell me about you or something like that. And then she had one more card that.

What's an exciting passion project you're working on this year? She goes to her whole networking event. She goes the next day, she gets an email from one of the people she spoke to and said, my God, I so enjoyed our conversation yesterday. You are just such a lovely person. It was hysterical. And she said, the perception when people learn to be good listeners is so much different from being just a way to talk.

Teresa Schlup (43:14)
Ooh.

Yes.

Nancy (43:37)
Okay, I can't tell you how many people and you know this because you have this as well a bit people are just people They're not doing it on purpose. They just are who they are But most people by the time you get the second sentence out They've already interrupted you and they're telling you that it's a story about themselves about the past Like this is just what people do and they call it conversation, but it's it's not necessarily conversation It's just like I want to talk so I want you to hear my story, right? And they never really heard what you said respond to what

you said and then you know that kind of relates to a story of mine right they just don't even acknowledge what the person said they just start talking right so this is a big problem I was an art consultant for 17 years and I was in homes with the clients and the interior designers and watched

Teresa Schlup (44:16)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (44:28)
their interactions when they were trying to present a new product or measure or just give the client some money story, right? Like what they're going to have to pay. And time and time again, the designer would just talk way too much and not acknowledge that the client said something, you know, like my husband and I were talking about what we want to do with this ceiling. We might want to do a coffered ceiling. my God. Well, I was thinking in the bathroom, we should do that. Like they never even acknowledged, right? Cause they're so excited about their new idea for the bathroom. They never even.

Teresa Schlup (44:35)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (44:58)
acknowledge that the client said anything and I just watch it and I go they're losing the client. They're going to be fired because they are not good listeners.

Teresa Schlup (44:59)
and

And honestly, I used to teach communication to IT professionals because IT professionals are by nature very introverted and non-talkative, non-communicative, and they didn't understand why everybody thought they were so rude and ugly. And they weren't rude people. Like they had really good hearts and they had really good intentions and they really wanted to fix the problems. But because they didn't respond, they didn't make eye contact, they didn't talk or communicate or do these things that you are telling us about now.

Nancy (45:27)
Yes.

Teresa Schlup (45:37)
they were perceived to be very, very rude and almost putting people down. And so I had to teach the flip side of that about the power of communication, but that active listening piece is the number one problem in communication. Hands down, Google this, you will find that I'm not lying here. I don't have stats to back it up in this episode, but I know that it's because I just researched this for another one. Yeah, I just researched this for another episode where I was talking about leaning into discomfort.

Nancy (45:51)
No more.

yeah, you and I could research this up the gazoo. Yeah.

Teresa Schlup (46:06)
to improve your customer service skills specifically. And that's what it is, it's that active listening piece that we're missing so many times. But I would even take it so far as that active listening and reading, whether it's reading the room, reading the words that have been written out to you, whatever the case is, it's that actively engaging in what is being presented to you before you respond.

Nancy (46:24)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. And besides the waiting to talk, not acknowledging, I mean, it's really important for the client to feel heard. I mean, just think about it anywhere in your life. You want to be heard.

at least a certain amount of sentences and then acknowledge what you said. Otherwise you're feeling like, why am I bothered? Right? So do that for your clients. Do that for your clients. Treat your clients the way you would want to be treated if you were getting a service. Right? Think of it that way. Would you... ⁓

Teresa Schlup (46:53)
Yes!

Nancy (47:04)
Think of a person being really well organized and professional if you saw them getting out of their car disheveled. If they didn't shake your hand and they had bags in their hand, dropping them at your front door, would you think they're organized, right? If they look at your social media and you're not anywhere in it, are they gonna trust you enough to do the job? If you're on social media and you have a logo and there's no picture of you anywhere, is someone even going to call you? If you have a picture of your back,

looking at fabrics and they never see your face or your hands. Are they going to trust you enough to call you? Think of all these things and then when you're with somebody, listen to them. You know what? You all know that when you're around a

listener, makes you feel good. You get to talk for how many hours they listen, they acknowledge it, don't try to solve. They just go, I hear you, and then ask questions. I'd say that's my last tip. Make sure you ask questions. Don't just talk and not engage in conversation. That's basically just talking at somebody. A conversation is not someone talking for an hour at you. Right?

Teresa Schlup (48:02)
Yes.

Right. That's a

lecture.

Nancy (48:08)
That's a lecture, That's a lecture, ranting, a scolding, whatever you want to call it, right? So if your client is, if you're talking for a while, ask your client a question. Does that make sense to you? Do you have anything to add? Am I nailing it? Don't just talk for an hour straight.

Teresa Schlup (48:23)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy (48:27)
stop and check in. you're looking at something and you need to follow along with your presentation, that's fine. But look up once in a while and make sure you're reading their reaction to it and that you are

encoding the right thing on them that you are the professional and that they are you going at a pace that they understand or pace they can absorb you're using your hand gestures for cognitive load ⁓ reduction so they don't have to listen so tightly all of that can happen if you just slow down and observe

Teresa Schlup (48:58)
Yes, yes, such powerful stuff, very good. Okay, anything else that you would want to add to this conversation? We covered a lot already.

Nancy (49:00)
Right?

We did cover a lot.

mean, we do a whole body language training in our academy and I really probably pick out individual people when I think they may be having an issue outside of the group saying, if you're having an issue in the group that I'm not able to read you or you're not making eye contact or you're not speaking in a way that I can really understand or you're talking way too much.

I know you're doing it outside of my group as well. And then I'll pull people and talk to them privately and go, let's work a little bit on this and that. The other thing, because I think that'll help with your sales success, the growth of your business, your collaborations with other business owners. You want to be a person that people want to be around first.

so that you can be attracting the right business and then you want to pay attention to the details of what you are coming across to other people in your body language and your voice and your pace and then read them by being a really good listener and observer. If you can work on this it takes years to hone this but these couple of tips I gave here and there's so many more ⁓ are the starting point to start paying attention to something you've probably never paid attention to before.

Teresa Schlup (50:20)
Very true. Okay, good. So tell us about your Providence Insiders Academy here because this is something I love your Academy too and I see so much success come out of your Academy. So tell us a little bit about that before we say goodbye.

Nancy (50:21)
Okay.

my God, I love my Academy, Theresa. ⁓

So basically

my academy is ⁓ for interior designers who are struggling to make the money they want to make.

I'm going to keep it that simple, right? It's not just for newbies. It's good for people mid-career, end of career. If you haven't made money up to this point or the level of success you want in your business, that's what the academy is for. So it's a small group coaching program that incorporates group. It incorporates one-on-one. It incorporates a walkie talkie app right to my phone and my associate coach Leslie. So if they have a question today, they can ask and get an answer today. They can help making decisions for

Teresa Schlup (51:06)
Okay.

Nancy (51:06)
without

future success of their business. They get accountability because I'm always bugging them. ⁓ They have over a hundred lessons in the background that they can self learn and go ahead if they want to, but they meet with me mostly twice a month and Leslie in a small group. They get to ask questions, it's interactive, and then we do a lesson. We teach everything from the business side that you need to know to run a profitable

Teresa Schlup (51:12)
you

Nancy (51:33)
thriving interior design business if that's what you want. And I also do custom coaching for sales teams and things like that. But mostly, the success that's coming out of the Academy, the one year program is so exciting to me, it's the one I just want to keep doing. And I always say everyone's buying templates and courses and this and that. And then sometimes they end up on my calendar because they bought it, they never did anything with it, or they bought it and they did the first

course lesson, they didn't do anything after that, right? So if you need more than which I know you do if you're not making money, you need a coach, and you're an interior designer, reach out to us and let's see if we can be a good fit for you to get you finally to where you want to be people wait way too long.

Teresa Schlup (52:22)
Yes, and like I said, I've seen so much success, because I have many clients who have gone through the Academy, and so much incredible success. And almost every single one of them say, it was more than I ever imagined, and I'm doing better than I ever thought possible. And that's a very clean thing.

Nancy (52:36)
You know what I've tried to put,

you know, I try to put everything they need and you have been one of our sponsors that you, what you audit their websites for them as part of my program. You don't even charge extra for that for me, which I appreciate. And it makes a huge difference because then when they see maybe their website's not working for them, right. And then we have their social media audited and maybe that's not working for them. Right. So we have different audits that we do outside of the group coaching outside of the one-on-one they get with me outside of the walkie talkie app and all the lessons. There's so much more to this program.

Teresa Schlup (52:42)
Yeah. ⁓

Nancy (53:06)
They get the key pricing tool because if you're not pricing yourself right you will not make it as an interior designer period right so Lots included in the program at the bottom line is if you're a struggling interior designer Don't wait how many more years are you gonna wait until you figure out? To hire someone to tell you how to do it right and then you're on a rinse and repeat and just keep it up after that Which is much easier?

Teresa Schlup (53:13)
Hands down.

So much easier, so much easier. So, all right, very good. Thank you again, Nancy. I always love having you on the solo grind. And thank you so much for tuning in or joining me today.

Nancy (53:40)
we talked for a long time, it's, mean, I'm hoping it helps everybody to just start paying attention a little bit to your body language. It could make a huge difference in your trust that you get from your clients and your success in your sales.

Teresa Schlup (53:51)
Absolutely, and we will include some of the best tips down here in our show notes here so people can pick up on them. And honestly, if you've listenening this and you feel just a tiny bit overwhelmed, I would listen to it again and really start putting into practice just one thing at a time. I always like a 1 % rule. Let me master one thing at a time and then move on to the next. And I guarantee it's gonna make a huge difference in how you approach your business, your relationships in and out of business and the success that you see moving forward.

Nancy (54:05)
Yes.

Thanks, Teresa.

Teresa Schlup (54:21)
All right.

Thank you guys. Thank you so much for tuning in this week and I can't wait to meet you all next week.